Comments on: Reading Genesis: Order and Chaos

By: Holly Ordway

Holly Ordway — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:54:06 +0000

We should not skip over Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” By “the heavens and the earth,” we have everything; by “in the beginning,” we have the starting point; there was nothing before. Everything we get after this verse (including the formless, void earth) is God’s creation.

By: cstirlingbartholomew

cstirlingbartholomew — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:12:51 +0000

my apologies to Joel Hoffman; what I quoted above was a comment by “wounded ego” not Joel. Joel’s name appeared at the top of the comment so I understood it as his comment.

By: cstirlingbartholomew

cstirlingbartholomew — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:20:53 +0000

You said “The book of Genesis articulates a position of creation ex nihilo” Joel Hoffman does not agree.

quote

Genesis 1 clearly begins with a pre-existent infinite chaotic abyss. Think “Thales.” It is philosophy (as someone pointed out) and dogma that dictate EX NIHILO.

So the flip side of this whole discussion relates to those who contend that BARA means “create” (as in, “out of nothing”) – which it doesn’t signify, and context protests against suggesting that it does. God BARAed Adm from the dirt, not EX NIHILO.

Gen 1:27 So God created [BARA] man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

How was man made? Well, ADM from dirt, and Eve from a bone.

While I can’t contribute much to the issue of BARA as “separate,” it is, IM[somewhat]HO, crystal clear that it does not suggest or support EX NIHILO “creation.”

Some have suggested that her reading was an attack on EX NIHILO. I don’t see the dichotomy, but if EX NIHILO and her reading are incompatible, and that is some part of the measure of the worth of her argument in anyone’s mind, then I think they need to give her another listen.

>>>…The verb bara, he created, being joined in the singular number with Elohim the plural noun, exemplifies the unity of the trinity….

Not according to the 4th gospel, because there, the one who was “with God” was his utterance, not Jesus and a ghost:

Gen 1:3 And **God said**, Let there be light: and there was light.

It is to that that John refers – to “Let there be light.”

And without this utterance was not anything made (that is, of the things that *were* made, because some things pre-existed):

Gen 1:6 And **God said**, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Everything (that was made), was made through this utterance:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning [BERESHIT] was the Word ["utterance"], and the Word ["utterance"] was with God, and the Word ["utterance"] was [of the quality of] God[-utterance].
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning [Gen 1] with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him [it (neuter) - utterance]; and without him [it] was not any thing made ***that was made***.

end quote

I am not totally convince that Hoffman has made his case, but in view of what Bruce Waltke and Peter Enns have been up to recently … it is worth pause for a breath before claiming that Genesis teaches ex nihilo. Waltke in Creation and Chaos 1974, was still more or less orthodox but that was a long time ago and people change their views.

By: pwgilbert

pwgilbert — Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:36:45 +0000

Growing up as a PK (preacher’s kid) there was never a time when I did not believe God created the world in six days. It was not something I questioned. Now I can imagine those “days” as longer than 24 hours, but it doesn’t make any difference to my faith if those were 24 hour or 1000-year days. God spoke trees, birds, fields and fish into existence. Today, however, kids are taught evolution as though it is fact. That bothers me more than the length of days in Gen. 1 and 2. To the question of order, however, I say yes! God is a God of order; A look at OT law is a good way to see the validity of this. God gave his people the 10 commandments and a whole load of case law to explain what it would look like to “not swear false witness against thy neighbor.” The whole purpose of the law was to create an orderly society, a productive, prosperous society with God at its center. In Numbers, God organized his people into tribal and clan units so that each person knew where he would camp and march from the desert to the promised land. I believe our celebration of the Mass reflects order. It’s not just ritual for the sake of ritual: it is a well organized sequence of events each building on the previous one until we hear the bells at the raising of the bread and wine and know God is with us. Bodily.
Order is a good place to discuss Genesis, Holly; sorry I got on another soapbox.
God be with us as we follow his order.

By: Ali

Ali — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:53:07 +0000

When I converted to Christianity, one of my concerns was never whether Genesis provides a literal description of the formation of the world. However, I know many people for whom this a big sticking point, and they are not able to reconcile issues such as the age of the earth and the fact that Bible says the earth was created in six days. People do seem very concerned with proving that God literally created the world in six days. In Orthodoxy, many of the Church Fathers say that descriptions in Genesis about the creation of the earth are there to show us that the earth was created not how it was created.

When I look at the order of creation, I cannot help but think that there must be a Creator behind everything, and because I am a Christian, I know that Creator is God. However, I am not so sure I would be persuasive in an argument to a nonChristian or someone who does not believe in God. One of the books that helped me sort out some of my ideas after I became a Christian was Lee Strobel’s The Case for Faith. Like his other book, The Case for Christ, it is somewhat simplistic in certain areas, but it really helped me gain some understanding of the arguments and issues in this area.